#124397  by MG366
 Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:16 am
:TU (as current board equivalent of a +1

Grant
idex wrote:Pipeking, I and many others on this forum recognise and value the expertise and experience of both Minnie and mattn on gas matters. Their comments are well worth taking on board.

If you think differently I suggest that you go ahead but don't forget that it's your own safety which may be at risk. Your installation may well be OK if both air intake and exhaust are vented to the outside (ie. it is a "room-sealed" system) but to make sure your insurance cover is not compromised I would strongly advise that you have the installation checked and certified by a qualified gas inspector.
 #124410  by Minnie
 Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:23 am
Minnie wrote:
mattn wrote:I give up.
Me too
Actually not quite - one last effort.

Just because there are a lot of caravan installations running around with califonts doesn't mean the were legally installed originally but the point for the user is are they now unsafe?

The gas and electricity laws say that if the installation meets the code they are considered to be safe. The laws go on to say it is an offence to use an unsafe installation. A non-compliant installation is not necessarily unsafe. A non-compliant installation is in a grey area between safe and unsafe.

You make the choice.

It took a while to find this on the ESS website but here's what I meant about it being possible and if it could happen in a house it could happen in a caravan.
Date: 11/09/1998
Location: Wellington City
Gas type: Natural
Accident type: Incomplete combustion (CO poisoning)
Description of loss: Death of a young woman. Possible mild poisoning of another person.
Events summary: An instantaneous multipoint water heater installed in the bathroom supplied a bath/shower and hand basin in same room. The woman was found dead in the bath. The coroner’s inquest found death by drowning while unconscious from carbon monoxide poisoning, caused by faulty gas water heater installation. The room was poorly ventilated. Debris from the fibre cement flue had partly blocked the heat exchanger and allowed spillage of combustion products under light wind conditions. The short height of the heater’s flue and the small size of the bathroom had lead to a build-up of carbon monoxide. The coroner’s inquest also recommended a review of gas heater standards and more formal training in
their construction, installation and design.
 #124411  by pipeking
 Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:40 am
idex wrote:Pipeking, I and many others on this forum recognise and value the expertise and experience of both Minnie and mattn on gas matters. Their comments are well worth taking on board.

If you think differently I suggest that you go ahead but don't forget that it's your own safety which may be at risk. Your installation may well be OK if both air intake and exhaust are vented to the outside (ie. it is a "room-sealed" system) but to make sure your insurance cover is not compromised I would strongly advise that you have the installation checked and certified by a qualified gas inspector.
Just to be clear, I am not installing this califont, from what I can work out it was fitted between 2011 and 2013 by the guy who sold it to us. In a camper van not caravan.

Minnie, thanks again for your clarification of the laws regarding existing installs. Do you have any reference for that?
Minnie wrote:Date: 11/09/1998
Location: Wellington City
Gas type: Natural
Accident type: Incomplete combustion (CO poisoning)
Description of loss: Death of a young woman. Possible mild poisoning of another person.
Events summary: An instantaneous multipoint water heater installed in the bathroom supplied a bath/shower and hand basin in same room. The woman was found dead in the bath. The coroner’s inquest found death by drowning while unconscious from carbon monoxide poisoning, caused by faulty gas water heater installation. The room was poorly ventilated. Debris from the fibre cement flue had partly blocked the heat exchanger and allowed spillage of combustion products under light wind conditions. The short height of the heater’s flue and the small size of the bathroom had lead to a build-up of carbon monoxide. The coroner’s inquest also recommended a review of gas heater standards and more formal training in
their construction, installation and design.
*emphasis added

Its really of no surprise to me this resulted in a death, poor ventilation and a blocked flue.

As I said, we only got 85L of fresh I hardly think we could be gassed out in the time it would take that to run out...honestly the only fumes I have ever smelt from any califont was an outside one when the winds blowing in the window. I can't smell a thing when the campers is running, so I will assume for the time being that its safe.

When I can catch up with my mate who is a registered gas fitter, I will get him to have a look over it and also verify the laws etc and I report back

thanks for your time Minnie, I appreciate it greatly, apologies for my tardiness I am a social misfit
 #124415  by Neddy
 Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:26 am
Damon, regardless of what you decide to do or not do, be sure to install a CO detector.
I got one - even though they are not compulsory!
One of these will set you back less than NZ$10, post free - and could save your life.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-PCS-B ... 45475.html

Neville.
 #124421  by Minnie
 Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:23 pm
pipeking wrote: Just to be clear, I am not installing this califont, from what I can work out it was fitted between 2011 and 2013 by the guy who sold it to us. In a camper van not caravan.

Minnie, thanks again for your clarification of the laws regarding existing installs. Do you have any reference for that?
<tsk> When I say "caravan" I mean "caravans; mobile holiday homes, campervans and motor homes; trucks and trailers incorporating fixed gas installations; boats; houseboats; floating restaurants, whether fixed or mobile; and catering vehicles, whether self-propelled or towed"

Here's a page on their website that talks about the "spectrum" of safety— that is a non-compliance may not necessarily mean unasafe: http://www.energysafety.govt.nz/install ... and-unsafe

Without trying to sound like a broken record there must be a reason why so may parts of the world think it is a bad idea.
 #124438  by Grant4747
 Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:22 am
I'm surprised that we (caravaners/motorhomers) don't have to have a certificate of fitness sticker on the windscreen to say we've had our gas system looked at by an approved gas inspector that needs to be renewed every 4 yrs or so like an electrical WOF does.

I'm not one for having more rules in life but when it comes to gas you want to make sure your system is ok from what an inspector can physically tell on an existing system.
Eg Our Truma hot water cylinder caught the internal wall alight because of a faulty flue fitment From the manufacturer.

Granted! In this case if there was an inspection done the outcome may have been the same as it's something you can't easily see without taking something apart.
 #124443  by idex
 Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:24 am
Hi Grant, while I agree with your sentiments I would be very much against any compulsory regular certification unless the certifiers become much more reasonable with their fees.

I think Neddy's suggestion of cheap LPG and CO monitors is an excellent practical approach which we can all afford. They won't make an unsatisfactory installation "safe" but at least you might get warned in time to escape alive.
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