#124356  by Minnie
 Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:30 pm
pipeking wrote:I thought the califont was ok inside if it was 'sealed' and had a flue?
The wording from the standard is:
Instantaneous water heaters shall not be installed in bedrooms or areas used for
sleeping unless the water heater is of the room-sealed type. There shall be no
ventilation openings or other connections between any area used for sleeping
and any compartment in which an instantaneous water heater is located if the
water heater is not of the room-sealed type.
Bunging a califont in a cupboard (with possible unintended consequences) is a bit of a bodge. Bear in mind that for the rest of the world (Europe, North America & Australia) califonts are outright banned.
 #124358  by Minnie
 Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:57 pm
mattn wrote: One question - as I understand, a "Certificate of Verification" is a useful way to know the installation is safe to use, but there is no legal requirement for it to use or sell an installation - am I correct?
The only place the NZS 5255 CoV is called up in the regulations is where a fixed installation has been disconnected for more than six months. Then you need a CoV before gas can be restored.

There's also a regulation for landlords that says their rented premises must be safe and that if they have a CoV done it is deemed to be safe.

Selling a caravan has no special requirement other than a duty of care.
 #124362  by pipeking
 Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:08 pm
Minnie wrote: Bunging a califont in a cupboard (with possible unintended consequences) is a bit of a bodge. Bear in mind that for the rest of the world (Europe, North America & Australia) califonts are outright banned.
Ok, I never said anything about the califont being in a cupboard? Its on the wall above the kitchen bench, the pipes are hidden behind a bulkhead and tbh the old dude made a really neat job of that... not bodge at all. Its vented and has a flue to the outside wall.

Funny your comment about califonts being banned in the "rest of the world".. I have travelled through Europe (French and Swiss Alps) and North America from BC to Colorado and almost everywhere I stayed had gas infinity hot water systems so not sure what you are on about? :?

Perhaps you should tell these guys :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAvVAPWLQ_M

Anyway, just how would you operate the thing if it wasn't inside?? The on/off switch is on the front :roll:
 #124363  by mattn
 Fri Feb 17, 2017 6:49 am
CO is a great gas, you don't know you have a fault until you wake up dead. It happens on average once every couple of years in New Zealand. An install that meets the standards is safe*, and is legal*. An install that does not meet the standards may still be safe*, but is not legal*.

Your install (unless the combustion gas is drawn from outside) may be well done from a cosmetic view point, and may even be safe*, but is not legal*.

* : Safe is not a boolean condition. In reality safe means safer than needed and unsafe means less safe than needed. Legal is a boolean condition. Something is legal, or not legal.
 #124365  by Minnie
 Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:41 am
pipeking wrote:
Ok, I never said anything about the califont being in a cupboard? Its on the wall above the kitchen bench, the pipes are hidden behind a bulkhead and tbh the old dude made a really neat job of that... not bodge at all. Its vented and has a flue to the outside wall.

Funny your comment about califonts being banned in the "rest of the world".. I have travelled through Europe (French and Swiss Alps) and North America from BC to Colorado and almost everywhere I stayed had gas infinity hot water systems so not sure what you are on about? :?

Perhaps you should tell these guys :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAvVAPWLQ_M
Banned in caravans is what I meant. Caravans are usually much smaller than a house and much more airtight.

The video you referenced makes no mention of installing it in a caravan and forty three seconds in actually states "The unit should never be used in a sealed environment" (like a caravan).

The appliance you have is what is called an open flued appliance. While the combustion products are vented through the flue, the appliance takes its air from the living spaces. People have died from faulty open flued appliances in NZ. In a caravan with smaller volumes and less natural ventilation the risk of harm from a faulty appliance is much greater.

EN1949 — European standard for caravans
“10.4.1 Water heaters in caravans, motor caravans and other road vehicles
Water heaters in caravans, motor caravans and other road vehicles shall be of the room sealed type and shall comply with EN 15033.”

NFPA 1192 —North American standard for caravans

Doesn’t actually directly prohibit non-room sealed water heaters but does it by implication. The standard specifies where (on the exterior of the vehicle) the inlet and outlet vents for appliances are to be located.

AS/NZS 5601.2 – Joint Australian NZ standard for caravans

"2.9.1 Prohibition on installation
Except as provided below, the following appliances and equipment shall not be installed inside a caravan or boat:
(a) An appliance which is designed to operate on an unregulated gas supply or at a pressure exceeding 2.75 kPa.
(b) In Australia, a water heater, other than a room-sealed type."
pipeking wrote:
Anyway, just how would you operate the thing if it wasn't inside?? The on/off switch is on the front :roll:
The same way you would if you had an Infinity mounted on the outside of your house — turn the hot tap on and the W/H goes "woomp". In the case of a room-sealed W/H in a caravan the unit will generally be under the floor.
 #124383  by pipeking
 Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:49 pm
mattn wrote:CO is a great gas, you don't know you have a fault until you wake up dead. It happens on average once every couple of years in New Zealand.
Wow really? You mean from car exhausts though right?

I mean, I did a quick search and all I could find thats relative to your argument is an incident at Lake Alexandrina in 2012 and that was a fridge not a califont :?

I am super confused how you think you could die from a Carbon Monoxide poisoning from a califont, I reckon with our stingy 85L fresh water tank I would be cold in the shower long before I was cold in my grave :lol:
mattn wrote: Your install (unless the combustion gas is drawn from outside) may be well done from a cosmetic view point, and may even be safe*, but is not legal*.
Well it was done back in 2011, and it appears to have a vented intake, does that mean it is or isn't ok?
Minnie wrote: Banned in caravans is what I meant. Caravans are usually much smaller than a house and much more airtight.

The video you referenced makes no mention of installing it in a caravan and forty three seconds in actually states "The unit should never be used in a sealed environment" (like a caravan).

The appliance you have is what is called an open flued appliance. While the combustion products are vented through the flue, the appliance takes its air from the living spaces. People have died from faulty open flued appliances in NZ. In a caravan with smaller volumes and less natural ventilation the risk of harm from a faulty appliance is much greater.
So if what you and Matt are saying is true, how do all the other people with califont gas in their motorhomes get on?

I am super confused about this. So, I am close to contacting the seller (who is a NZMCA member) and enquiring with them, but I just want to make sure I have all the facts first.

A quick google search comes up with quite a few images of campers here in nz with gas califonts fitted in the living areas.

This one being sold by RVShop here in NZ is very similar to ours: http://www.rvshop.co.nz/catalog/latest- ... ter-heater

It says it can be fitted internally. "Designed to be installed inside with a flue to vent the emissions." and "Ideal for a wide variety of installations for domestic, marine and recreational vehicles"

And this was just the first one on the page...


Minnie wrote:
pipeking wrote:
Anyway, just how would you operate the thing if it wasn't inside?? The on/off switch is on the front :roll:
The same way you would if you had an Infinity mounted on the outside of your house — turn the hot tap on and the W/H goes "woomp". In the case of a room-sealed W/H in a caravan the unit will generally be under the floor.
Well we have two Rinnai infinity units at our house, so I understand how they are supposed to work, whereas this thing in our camper has no instruction manual and I have to admit we are struggling a bit at working it. The thing is, if its left switched on, it seems to want to reignite and stuff. It also has the temperature displayed on that front panel and also all the controls (those three knobs, I am confused as hell as to why ours works best on winter and its summer) so operating it from the outside of the camper would be impossible. Unless you had it mounted backwards in said outside cupboard with the face plate sealed against the inside.

Look, I am by no means an expert on this stuff, and I don't pretend to be but there has got to be more to this than just what you two (who happen to be the most vocal on the other threads concerning gas installs) are saying here.

Anyone else keen to chime in?

Edited, I had too many smilies? wow never seen a smilie limit before
 #124386  by mattn
 Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:18 pm
I give up.
 #124395  by idex
 Sat Feb 18, 2017 6:52 am
Pipeking, I and many others on this forum recognise and value the expertise and experience of both Minnie and mattn on gas matters. Their comments are well worth taking on board.

If you think differently I suggest that you go ahead but don't forget that it's your own safety which may be at risk. Your installation may well be OK if both air intake and exhaust are vented to the outside (ie. it is a "room-sealed" system) but to make sure your insurance cover is not compromised I would strongly advise that you have the installation checked and certified by a qualified gas inspector.
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