#128742  by john&gael
 Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:16 pm
What do you think of new CSC regulations 2017. I think it will clean up the free CSC camps ? :-T
 #128748  by mattn
 Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:00 pm
Nope. "Picking up pennies in front of a steamroller." comes to mind.

Don't get me wrong, CSC is a great initiative and sets a solid foundation to build a sustainable freedom camping framework. The changes could be construed as minor tweaks that strengthen an already robust foundation or......

First issue....
Applying it retrospectively is unwarranted. The only time in NZ that regulation changes are applied retrospectively is significant safety risk, this change is being applied retrospectively, those who built up vehicles to the standard of the time, are being penalized though no fault of the own. I also have a concern it sets a dangerous precedent - they can change the standard anytime they like and your next CSC your vehicle may no longer meet the standard. Once they have go small vans off the road, they might put UK Caravans with portable tanks n the sites, then maybe converted buses. "First they came for the socialists...."

OTT? Time will tell, hopefully they stop at the sliding doors.

However, if we put that concern aside, lets get back to the steam roller

The problem is on top of the foundation (CSC) - it's a house of cards made from toilet paper (pun intended). The issues we read about are not caused non-CSC vehicles. Its caused by freedom campers. Strengthen the CSC standards and increasing the numbers of CSC vehicles won't fix the problem. The CSC standard provides a tool to help fix the problem, but making a better tool when your not even using the one you have to its most effective is pointless. The issues are caused by the number and behavior of freedom campers. Far too many freedom campers think CSC is badge of entitlement and a license to figuratively crap on the rights of others, these tend to be the same people that believe not having a CSC means you literally crap on others.

The focus has to shift to the philosophy of "Leave not trace" (Look up the movement), which focuses on choices and behavior. Concepts such as choosing to avoid locations that are under pressure, confining damaging activity to locations that can sustain it are whats needed. Every freedom camper leaves a trace - your visual foot print might disappear when you leave, but the memory of you visit takes longer to fade. Your tires tracks in soft grass might fade in time - but 100 tires do not. The rut might already be there, but do you need to make it bigger? Things like deciding to stay at an NZMCA park rather than the grassy campsite down the road because its been raining for a week make a small difference. Lots of us making a small difference makes a big change. LNT is not about sticking to the rules and regulations, its about dong more than the minimum - doing the right thing.

The good news is (I believe) the NZMCA recognizes this and is working hard to move on from the 'Badge of Entitlement' mindset some have with the little blue sticker represents. Much more needs to be done, especially among this community, NZMCA cannot carry this alone.
 #128752  by idex
 Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:10 pm
Matt, I fully agree with you.

If we could get everyone, including ALL NZMCA members, tourists and other mobile folk to sign up to and fully abide by the "Leave No Trace" concept there would be no need to worry about CSC at all. Insisting that we all have the appropriate certification is next to useless unless we do actually use our own facilities. We have noticed some who don't.

There are also those who choose to always stay in camping grounds and use the facilities there. Why is it necessary for those NZMCA members to bring their motorhomes and caravans up to CSC standard?

It all boils down to integrity and a will to "do the right thing".

How do we encourage everyone to do this? How do we ensure that the general public, especially the day-trippers, do the same? Why don't the Government Tourist authorities make a greater effort to educate inbound visitors about what we expect here ? Is building more and fancier toilets really the answer? Is it any wonder that we are still meandering around and making little progress against the increasing numbers of "freedom crappers" who are despoiling our once-pristine country?
 #128766  by mattn
 Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:08 pm
Lets start here

I am more than happy to have a discussion how LNT principles translate to freedom camping and motorhomes.
 #128769  by Mick
 Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:39 pm
the trouble is that we are dealing with the "millennial generation kids" of actually our (at least my) age parents. Something went completely wrong there without presenting now a thesis on this issue.
I worked in several countries in the past 20 years and with lots of graduated young engineers. 90% of my initial 1-2 year hard work was "children education" to give them the real mattering relevant stuff what was missing in order to become an honest, open communicating and most importantly a responsibility taking engineer even on mistakes which are of course part of product development.

Educating and informing tourists at whatever point of their journey preparation and during their trip here is the key in my opinion, more regulation will just inspire more creativity to ship around them.

 #128773  by Harper
 Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:04 pm
Idex wrote:
"There are also those who choose to always stay in camping grounds and use the facilities there. Why is it necessary for those NZMCA members to bring their motorhomes and caravans up to CSC standard? "

Surely, if these people only stay at campsites and use their facilities, what is the purpose of being a member of the NZMCA. If its for the benefits such as discounts on ferries etc, these are available through other groups that don't require you to be CSC.and have cheaper membership. Genuinely inquisitive, not being argumentative.

 #128785  by beanpole
 Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:22 pm
To go back to the OT, NO, it wont.
I quite agree with mattn.
For the NZMCA to throw $47,000 at the problem to improve the accessibility of a toilet will do nothing to curb the problem.
Anything else in the NZS 5465 2001, No2 amendment is irrelevant to the problem.
As I have often said, vehicles don't cause the problems, peoples' do.
Until people can get their head around that it is not the standard at fault, it is the user, nothing will change.

As Mick says; education is the problem. The LNT scheme will still have the same problems of compliance within those who have signed up.
The CMCA have a LNT scheme. This is because the logistics of a large country to operate CSC as we know it would be impractical.

Off track but similar. I have been a WoF inspector for a large part of my working life.
You can inspect a vehicle for compliance but you cannot control the user. You have a very large VIRM(vehicle inspection requirements manual) to guide you through with the continual changes.
Nothing you do as an inspector will stop the user (after issuing a WoF) doing a burnout away from your garage, driving through a stop sign and exceeding any posted speed limit. Let alone keeping the vehicle up to standard.

Similarly, don't blame the CSC inspection process for the situation we have now, or expect changes to solve it.
 #128814  by Zukiwi
 Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:20 pm
I've moved this to a more appropriate part of the forum as CSC and motorhomers' behaviour is not just a plumbing issue.

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